We need a referendum ....

... on Europe.  I accept that a vote on Lisbon itself may not be possible.

But a referendum on Europe is becoming urgent.

No one under the age of 52 in Britain has ever had a say.

All three main parties, and 638 of the 646 MPs promised us one at the last election.  We Conservatives opposed not merely the Lisbon treaty, but the transfer of powers made by Amsterdam and Nice.

If we are serious about localism, restoring trust in SW1 and renewing our democracy, we must give people a direct vote on Europe.

Posted on 4 November 2009 by Douglas Carswell

Comments

The first of many to speak out against Cameron's new announced (and weak) policy?

I agree we need a referendum on repatriating a wide range of powers - many more than the 3 areas Cameron suggested.

Posted on 4 November 2009 17:23 by Think This

You may be serious about localism, but as we've just heard on TV, David Cameron isn't. We're not getting our referendum. Tony Blair, Gordon Brown, David Cameron: same ****, different day!

Posted on 4 November 2009 17:40 by David Hannah

Well, he must either think we're stupid or he is!!!

Everything he said was a complete waste of time considering that all our powers are now in Europe.

We want in/out referendum now!

http://muffledvociferation.blogspot.com/

Posted on 4 November 2009 17:48 by Sue

Do something radical then to force the issue and join UKIP, give your explanation and your viewpoint and it will be on every news broadcast tonight.

Put your money where your mouth is.

Posted on 4 November 2009 17:51 by Backbench Warrior

Utter tripe. The UK public have voted again and again at General Elections for parties who have clearly supported closer union with the EU. Your best bet is ensure that a Conservative Government goes no further.

As David Cameron could say, in the words of John Major, 'Don't bind my hands.'

For God's Sake, Douglasm if you and your fellow Europhobics attempt to destroy Cameron and the Conservative Party again through Europe then all you will do is allow the Labour Party, committed to greater Europeanm integration, back into power. And then where wil you be?

juliankavanagh@gmail.com

Posted on 4 November 2009 17:52 by Julian

I think you're wrong on this. The coming election will be a democratic vote in favour of Cameron'spolicies announced today, and is all that is required for democracy to be taken seriously. I think you are being too dogmatic about the idea of a referendum. It is only appropriate in certain circumstances, and Cameron's policy would write those circumstances into law while removing some of the odious intrusions hitherto imposed.

Posted on 4 November 2009 17:58 by thedarknight

"I accept that a vote on Lisbon itself may not be possible."

Parliament is sovereign - The Lisbon Treaty doesn't change that. The terms of the LT serve only to limit the minds and honour of the politicians in Westminster.

We could have a referendum on anything if Parliament was so inclined.

Posted on 4 November 2009 18:12 by Gareth

Banging on about a referendum on Europe will simply snatch defeat from the jaws of victory and maybe another 12 years of Labour.

Posted on 4 November 2009 18:34 by Roger Cruse

Its about setting priorities, not about making wish-lists with the thing one wants most on top.

The priority must be to get Brown out and Cameron into 10 Downing Street. All else can come after that is achieved.

Wanting referenda on the EU is well and good (and I agree with having them) - but what good will it do if one has five more years of 'wanting', because the election is lost yet again, when one could have had five years of actually driving one's policies forward and achieving a referendum?

Posted on 4 November 2009 19:03 by Viv Evans

Douglas,

A 'referendum lock' is meaningless when there will not be another treaty.

If it is wrong to pass further powers, then it was wrong in the first place so why just a lock on the future?

We all know that Cameron requires the agreement of the other 26 for re-negotiation. If he does not get it, we are back to square one! Some 'plan' - by the way have you told him to look at the right 'Plan'?

What is the point of promising a referendum on the euro? We have signed a treaty that say the currency of the EU WILL BE the euro and if the EU 'decides' to 'impose' it what can Cameron do? Zilch!

All Cameron has done is provide another 'cast-iron' guarantee and we all know what that is worth!

Off topic: feel you should have answered the question on SkyNews! It put you in a 'bad light'!

Posted on 4 November 2009 19:04 by WitteringsfromWitney

My feelings towards the Lisbon Treaty, and the EU as a whole, cannot be put into words.

They can, however, be put into song.

With apologies to Bernstein, may I present <a href="http://dungeekin.blogspot.com/2009/11/gee-mister-barroso.html">'Gee Mister Barroso'</a>

D

Posted on 4 November 2009 19:33 by Dungeekin

Will it matter in 30 years what a term or two of a Cameron government did back in 2010? Any good that might be done could be undone by the EUSSR.

Posted on 4 November 2009 20:01 by cmp

"No one under the age of 52 in Britain has ever had a say."

Utter nonsense. Everyone of voting age has had a say every five years since 1979 in the European Parliament elections have they not?

Posted on 4 November 2009 20:11 by Cathal Scullion

"We Conservatives opposed not merely the Lisbon treaty, but the transfer of powers made by Amsterdam and Nice."

Sure, sure, Douglas. The trouble is that when you have actually been in power, you have supported more EU: the 1972 European Communities Act, the Single European Act and the Maastricht Treaty to name just three crucial pieces of legislation passed by a Tory government.

DK

Posted on 4 November 2009 20:42 by Devil's Kitchen

Et tu, Cameron?

Posted on 4 November 2009 20:50 by Peter Thomas

I was just old enough to vote in the referendum on the Common Market.

Yes, the Common Market. Not what we have had imposed on us. I think we do need a moment to reflect and vote on whether it's all going along a way we're happy with.

It's not what I voted for.

Posted on 4 November 2009 21:06 by Steve Lewis

The only referendum that we are ever going to have is In/Out.And the political establishment is not prepared to do that.None of them.Not yet.

It is not all doom and gloom though,because as the EUro zealots celebrate and congratulate themselves on how clever they have been in setting up a soft totalitarian state in the west,the manner in which they have done so has sown the seeds of its own destruction.

The EU will never,ever,have legitimacy and is doomed to fail.

Your job Douglas,and the job of all patriots, is now to help get us out of it before it inevitably implodes.

Show the way and the people will follow,because they want to...

Posted on 4 November 2009 21:39 by insert-coin-here

Thank goodness that you are not a flock follower!

Are the Tories behaving like lemmings?

Posted on 4 November 2009 21:58 by True_Belle

There goes our freedom. Cameron will be quite happy if Blair becomes President of the EU. Two of a kind. Liars, crooks and traitors. Tory/Lib/Lab, what chance democracy in Britain? We must vote UKIP or BNP to regain our freedom.

Posted on 4 November 2009 22:00 by David Harcombe

As so often with David Cameron, I like what he's saying but then I think about it and the doubts start setting in. Does he have any genuine principles beyond 'Vote Me'? What exactly does he believe in? What does he plan to do if the EU laughs in his face when he goes cap in hand to them and asks for our sovereignty back? Which we know they will.

I can live without the referendum if we have a clear promise of meaningful action, but do we? If Cameron goes to Brussels and they turn him down flat, is that really it for the next five years? The man who holds the purse strings should have the whip hand, but does he have the guts to USE that whip hand? And exactly how far does he personally want us to go with integration?

As an aside, I'm not sure those 52 and over got a vote on the EU, either. After all, what they voted for was free trade. Does a vote really count if the true purpose of that vote is hidden from the people voting?

At this stage, I would personally favour an 'in or out' referendum - and I'd go with 'out'. We gain nothing at all from being in the EU.

Posted on 4 November 2009 22:03 by Elliot Kane

Of course we need a referendum on Europe...but as long as politicians continue to ignore the wishes of the people, we will not get onw, will we?

Posted on 4 November 2009 22:28 by Iain

Totally agree with you, Douglas.

Posted on 4 November 2009 23:03 by Deborah

Hannan has quit over it, the EUPhiles on Conhome are calling for your head.

You two need to grow some and take a lead or just give up and join Dave Blair and his Blulabour project

Posted on 5 November 2009 00:06 by libertarian

After 60 years of voting Tory, Cameron has lost my vote by this refusal to hold a referendum on the topic of Europe (not Lisbon as that is now a fait accompli).

To those who think it would be worthless, I would point out that we are the second largest contributor to the EU's coffers and if we witheld our money and spent it on the UK, what could they do, declare war?

And if the ultimate result was that we left that disgusting union, so much the better!

Posted on 5 November 2009 00:15 by Pete

There are so many "Hate Cameron" posts on every conservative blog.

This is clearly an orchestrated campaign - intended to make us "normal" people feel there is a huge public disquiet about today's speech.

It is so illogical to hate Cameron when the REAL CROOKS are Bliar and McDoom. Well done, trolls, now crawl back under your rock.

Alan Douglas

Posted on 5 November 2009 01:43 by Alan Douglas

As far as I am concerned, if Cameron does not give me a say on our position over Europe, my vote (after 40 years of voting Tory) goes to UKIP

Posted on 5 November 2009 07:25 by John Atkins

While I accept that the EU immigration policy is a problem and that unrestricted trade is going to have to change, I don't trust the Conservatives to protect our basic rights without the European Court to oversee them!

Posted on 5 November 2009 09:24 by Chris Southall

Alan Douglas, I wish it were an orchestrated campaign - if someone was capable of orchestrating it then there might be some hope. But I am just one of many individuals who feel ignored, deceived and betrayed on this subject (for many years, not just now).

Posted on 5 November 2009 10:28 by Mark Forster

How to manipulate public opinion

1. Wait for a big Tory announcement
2. Put up lots of comments on blogs claiming to be from Tories disgusted with it.
3. Perhaps fool some proper Tories into agreeing and adding negative comment.
4. Wait for the MSM to pick up and widely spread the "fact" that Tory grassroots HATE the Tory announcement AND D Cameron.
5. Repair to the Spinner's Arms for a well-earned drink or two.

Alan Douglas

Posted on 5 November 2009 12:10 by Alan Douglas

Let nobody deceive you that the ultimate goal of the EU empire-builders is any different now than it was when they were trying to introduce a 'Constitution'.

National sovereignty and customs will be nullified.

Here's one example of what is happening in Europe:

E.g. one woman from Finland (just one) campaigned for crucifixes to be removed from classrooms in Italian schools and the ECHR has upheld her complaint.

This highlights the real purpose of the ECHR/EU's 'equality' and 'human rights' agendas. It means that just one person's complaint gets upheld and slowly but surely, all the cultural and religious institutions get wiped out, to be replaced by a grey, atheistic, homogenous empire-wide culture of fear, ignorance and poverty. And of course, love of the EU, its President, Anthem, future Olympic team, etc.

We need out of the EU and soon.

Posted on 5 November 2009 14:03 by Stewart Cowan

Agreed. But now you need to come up with a strategy for securing a referendum on Europe. How are you going to achieve this?

Posted on 5 November 2009 14:05 by Christopher Cooke

This whole thing is so depressing. Right of centre votes will haemorrhage to UKIP resulting in a hung Parliament or even the return of Brown. Somehow we need to get a Conservative/UKIP alliance created that would gain a phenomenal majority at the GE. Combine the votes not split them.

Posted on 5 November 2009 14:28 by John Whitehead

"While I accept that the EU immigration policy is a problem and that unrestricted trade is going to have to change, I don't trust the Conservatives to protect our basic rights without the European Court to oversee them!

Posted on 5 November 2009 09:24 by Chris Southall"

The bill of rights 1689 actualy gives you more rights than the state, the state can take away what it grants whenever it wishes (history shows this to be true time and time again.)

Posted on 5 November 2009 21:17 by chris southern

I honour you, sir, for putting the desires of the people before your own political career. For those who say if this splits the conservative party and lets labour back in I say this. It's quite simple. If we continue in Europe, we will be destroyed anyway. It's that simple, and it's that serious. Why can't people see it?

Posted on 5 November 2009 22:15 by Iain

"While I accept that the EU immigration policy is a problem and that unrestricted trade is going to have to change, I don't trust the Conservatives to protect our basic rights without the European Court to oversee them!"

Anyone would think Britain was a police state before ZanuLabour came to power and sold us out. We don't need a European court to tell us how to live we have functioned perfectly well with such crazy ideas as Magna Carta and the Bill of Rights.

As regards the argument that we have had numerous opportunities to vote on Europe since 1972 this is totally bogus. Not one mainstream political party has campaigned with an honest dialogue about the drip, drip, drip loss of sovereignty and lack of democracy that is the EU project. No one has been asked if they want to join a United States of Europe where unnaccountable commissioners make up laws as they see fit. No one was asked if they wanted to allow hundreds of thousands of Europeans to flood into Britain. I have always voted for Conservative candidates but come the next election UKIP will get my vote. You can put out as many scare stories as you like about letting the layabout party back in. I don't care, the only way to get change is by voting for someone who is prepared to institute change. That is no longer the Conservatives I'm afraid.

Posted on 5 November 2009 23:29 by LT

I agree that we need a referendum but you are wrong that people over the age of 52 have had a vote they voted for European Economic Community for free trade with member states NOT a European Super State with its own flag and President what we have now become. We need out of Europe before Britain loses its own identity.

Posted on 6 November 2009 09:49 by Philip Tye

As different member states have various opt-outs & clauses, as well as being able to veto certain proposals, how can the treaty be considered to be binding for all concerned?
As Ireland has been granted different conditions than the UK and the rest of Europe, then the treaty is not fair and evenly balanced.
Could we not therefore challenge it, as the treaty the UK signed is not the same treaty as other countries signed up to?

Posted on 6 November 2009 15:44 by Batty

Douglas

I have read your papers and seen you speak at the Bruges Group and felt that many of your views were spot on, both as a patriot (is that allowed anymore?) and a business owner.

At the Bruges Group, you stated that all the old Europhiles were gone - then Ken Clarke came back from the dead!

But the fact is the party you are alligned to doesnt follow the line you are committed to.

The new Treaty takes it all away and makes parliament and even localism an irrelevance.

Also, as a business owner that has been strangled by the lunacy of red tape and political correctness, I note with dismay that your party is starting with all-women shortlists.

As a business owner, I must look at the people making legislation to see how they conduct themselves before they impose their/the EU's wishes onto my company.

Labour started with all women shortlists (that ISNT equality), encouraged reward for failure (Beckett - DEFRA failure to Foreign Secretary), Encouraged full pay for people opting out of their work duties on religeous grouds (Ruth Kelly - Equalities Minister who DID NOT vote on an equalities bill due to religeous views - a yes or no vote was here choice, being paid her full Ministerial Salary+Perks not to perform should not be), and many other overpaid idiots delivering less value to their commitments elsewhere.

Whats happening?

Posted on 8 November 2009 11:08 by Lee - Billericay

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